Master Pocketwatch Thread

[Tigertail]

Hello all you knowlegable people!

I have been reading this thread over the last few days and have been impressed with all the information given!

I know very little about pocket watches except I love the look of them. ( normally the really expensive ones! )

I have just won this on e(vil)bay and hope that someone ( Harold? ) can tell me a bit about it!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170464034404&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT

I think I might become addicted..............

[deadsweetheart]

Hello all you knowlegable people!

I have been reading this thread over the last few days and have been impressed with all the information given!

I know very little about pocket watches except I love the look of them. ( normally the really expensive ones! )

I have just won this on e(vil)bay and hope that someone ( Harold? ) can tell me a bit about it!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170464034404&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT

I think I might become addicted..............

Personally i know nothing about this brand of watch but others on here might , however from looking at the numbering on the face of the watch , specifically the 4 it appears that the face might be from the art deco era just after ww1 to the beginning of ww2, plus the anti magnetic thing also makes me think its from that period .  ( magnetic fields can throw a watches escape mechanism off sometimes and some things can give off magnetic fields and you not even know it such as a steel belt buckle or for men in war their helmets sometimes had a field to them  and this is why stuff was later applied to teh brim of helmets to keep watches and compasses from screwing up)

[Abslomrob]

Very nice, relatively modern pocket watch movement.  By "Relatively modern" I mean post-50's.  We know that because of the use of shock protection (not very common in pocket watches before the 50's) and the "T Swiss Made T" on the dial (the T tells us that the dial contains Tritium, a relatively safe radioactive compound used to make the numbers glow in the dark, and was required on dials after the 50's).  

The case, however, seems older, and may have been a family heirloom that someone had a new movement placed into. Cuvettes  (the inside dust cover) weren't that common in 19th century watches (they were mostly a hold-over from the days when you had to wind watches with a key.  The cuvette protected the movement while exposing the keywind hole).  The pictures on the cuvette represented prizes won in watch timing competitions (usually at world fairs).  The text just says that it's a lever watch.

Sixteen jewels is a odd number; likely there's no jewel on the dial-side of the center wheel.  Jeweling the center wheel was largely for show (you don't get a lot of wear on a gear that only turns once an hour).

Buser was an independent company that merged with Phenix, Vulcain and Revue Thommen into the M.S.R. (Manufactures Suisse Reunies) in the late fifties or early sixties.  They had their own movements prior to that, but I kinda doubt this is one of them.  

[Ben Hudson, Esq.]

I've been having a bit of fun with my watch over the last few days. Amateur horology, hurrah. It had been stopping a lot, so I gave it a clean and lube. In the process, I think I managed to damage the hairspring (forgot it was attached to the underside of the plate I was taking off, and might have stretched it. Not to worry, because I had another non-working watch with a (nearly) identical movement, which provided a replacement. And then the mainspring spontaneously snapped  So I had to change that over. So I now have about 2.9 pocket watches.

Anyway, having become a bit of a Frankenwatch, its now developing a habit of occasionally stopping when left face down. Would I be right in thinking that this is probably a sign of insufficient oil on the lower balance wheel pivot?

[Kor Greenfield]

Sad news, my old pocketwatch has been damaged. The outer hunter case has come off, and to properly fix it would cost more than the watch itself. Therefore, I am in the market for a new pocketwatch. Anyone new brands or things I should look for in a good watch? I am looking to pay under $300, but cheaper is better on my budget, as long as it is not so cheap as to be low quality, and it must be mechanical rather than electric. I have posted pictures of my other watch before, if anyone remembers it, and I really liked it. It had windows in it so that you could see the inner workings, which I really enjoyed, so I would like that again if I could.

[Kor Greenfield]

OK, so I have been looked around and I have seen several Charles Hubert watches that look nice, and a few Woodford have caught my eye. Are these brands very good?

[Kor Greenfield]

Nevermind. I was looking at Jacobi's thread earlier and it answered a lot of questions I needed. Thanks anyway, though!

[T.Taylor the Third]

so this is my first pocket watch. It doesnt have a crystal and It oesent run. nut i love it anyway.

I took to the watch repait man we have and he said the  "axel rod? adechtal? a" i dont know something rod or axel is broken and would cost about a hundred to repair
is thera anyway I could repair it? if you can even figure out what is wrong, that is.
it maybe that only a skilled repair man can fix it .

[Abslomrob]

Ingersoll was a "Dollar watch" producer; the movements were mostly stamped metal held together by rivets.  Very rugged, not terribly accurate, and nearly impossible to fix.  They interesting to tinker with, but you're not likely to even find a watchmaker who'll try; the labor involved is 10x what the watch is worth.

[Bethune]

My Grandfather's pocket watch...


Click to enlarge:

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Click to enlarge:

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Collingwood & Sons, Middlesborough.

--- Forgot to mention, it *still* runs like....Well, you know the rest!

[Geppetto]

I just bought a pocket watch today and I'd like some info on it from all you knowledgable gentlemen!
It's a silver case, open face John Myers. That's what it says on the face:

"The anti magnetic
John Myers & co ltd
London"
"Swiss Made"

There are no markings on the mechanics, just on the case(where there's a serial: 1187937), so I guess it's not a really top notch watch but any insights would be most welcome! Photos following later today.

Also I found another watch at the same place. It was an Elgin and this is the serial 23739337. It seemed to be in very good condition. He would let it go for 150 euros but I'd like to look into it before I go for it; if anyone can help I'd greatly appreciate it!

By the way, bethune that's a wonderful watch 

[Abslomrob]

As far as the Elgin goes, the Elgin database (http://elginwatches.com/cgi-bin/elgin_sn?sn=23739337&action=search) gives this info:

Serial Number   SN Range RunQty Name Year grade size code   jewels Adj/reg/etc.
--------------  -------- ------ ---- ---- ----- ---- ------ ------ ------------
      23739337  23738001   3000      1920 290    16s h3n6p      7j

grade total runs   first yr  last yr class  size  code   jewels Adj/name
----- ----- -----  --------  ------- -----  ----  ------ ------ ----------
290  564000 265        1903     1933  109    16s  h3n6p      7j

To interpret, it's a 16s stem set 7 jewel, hunting case model, 3/4 plate, with nickle damasking.  Elgin made over half a million of this exact configuration over 30 years.

Personally, I think you can do better for that price, unless the case is solid silver or something special, but that depends on if it's serviced or not.  7 jewel watches aren't especially robust (after 90 years, you might start to see wearing on the brass pivots), but that depends on how much it was actually used, and if any of the pivots have been replaced. 

[Geppetto]

Personally, I think you can do better for that price

That's what I was thinking, thanks a lot. Thanks for the link as well it will definitely come in handy!

Here are the pictures of the other watch, I don't think it's anything special I just really liked the case:

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[Darkhound]

Mr. Bethune, your grandfather's watch is nearly identical to my own pride and joy,  which is marked Collingwood and Son, Newcastle on Tyne. The proof marks on the case work out to Sterling Silver, Birmingham Proof House, 1901. This means the watch was very old-fashioned when it was built, with a massive English lever escapement, keywind and keyset, and hinged into it's case. They are very rugged. I should be in such shape at 109.

Questions that I would like answers to: When did the Collingwoods move, and in which direction? Did the firm gain a son or lose one between your watch and mine? I suspect they built a great many of this watch for a long time, probably trading on the sturdiness, but I would like to have it confirmed. I haven't been able to find anything on the company.

[ANTONY]

Hallow !! I would like to ask you what's your opinion for a pocket watch cylindre 18K gold which made at 1910 ??

[Abslomrob]

Hmm..well, gold is good.   
Cylinder watches are difficult to fix (especially if the escapement is broken), so even if it's working, you need to be very careful with it.  Pictures would be nice! 

[ANTONY]

thanks a lot !! i search for this watch and i find that it is made at 1865  ... how can i find if it is the only one that made (sorry for my english ..... i can't upload pictures !!!! )

[Jhalverson]

I think I posted these two once before, but I've managed to get better pictures since, and I don't think I mentioned the serial numbers last time.
First off is my everyday watch, when i'm not at the factory. Have a cheap Cooper & co for that. It's an Illinois Bunn special that belonged to my great grandfather. Serial number is 4042517, and it's 21 jewels.

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The other is an Illinois A Lincoln, also belonging to my great grandfather, also 21 jewels, serial number 2284272.

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I know the pictures could be a bit better, but I don't have the steadiest hand, sadly.  Any information I could get would be most appreciated, and i hope everyone else enjoys them.

[Ben Hudson, Esq.]

Good day, all. I'm looking for some help regarding my Elida watch mentioned a long way back. My Frankenwatch being contrary, I've decided to get around to restoring the Elida which has been languishing in a box so that can be my daily user, the Frankenwatch can be mended / given away, and I have an excuse to get a smart watch for Sunday best.

The movement's fine, but I need:
Hands, or at least the hour hand
Face
Crystal

The last two are optional because I've made a fairly acceptable paper face which looks fine, and the current crystal is intact just very scratched and dull, but in time I'm sure I could get it shiny again.

I have very little information about the watch... it is Swiss, made by Elida probably in the 1930s. It's not a well-known maker and the watch itself isn't helping much. The movement has nothing on it except 'SWISS MADE', 'TWO ADJUSTMENTS', 'ELIDA WATCH Co' and '10 JEWELS'. It's nearly identical to the one posted by Gepetto. The case is nearly the same but with a plain back. I presume it's steel.

The hands resemble these -


HAC previously recommended ofrei.com, which seems to have the best selection of hands. Regarding size, is there any way of telling what size they should be, or shall I just get a micrometre, measure them and find a set here that matches?

[Darkhound]

Generally, the minute hand reaches from the center post to the minute marks on the face, and the hour hand reaches to the numbers. If the face is not round, measure to the nearest point on the ring. This need not be a very precise measurement. Width and style of the hands is generally determined by the boldness and style of the numbers. It's all a matter of taste, really.

[Abslomrob]

I have very little information about the watch... it is Swiss, made by Elida probably in the 1930s. It's not a well-known maker and the watch itself isn't helping much. The movement has nothing on it except 'SWISS MADE', 'TWO ADJUSTMENTS', 'ELIDA WATCH Co' and '10 JEWELS'. It's nearly identical to the one posted by Gepetto. The case is nearly the same but with a plain back. I presume it's steel.

The references to an "Elida" brand traces back to various German companies in the 20's and 30's.  The "two adjustments" and 10 jewels makes me think earlier, but its hard to say without a picture.  The case is probably some alloy (often referred to as nickleoid, silveroid, and various other trade names).  You might find a eubauch mark under the dial, or a mark under the balance, but it's unlikely.  If you can get the dial off, post a picture of the works under the dial; that and the diameter of the pillar plate might give me enough to get a maker for you.

HAC previously recommended ofrei.com, which seems to have the best selection of hands. Regarding size, is there any way of telling what size they should be, or shall I just get a micrometre, measure them and find a set here that matches?

I'm assuming you're talking about the post diameter?  If so, then yes, measuring the post with a micrometer is probably best.  When in doubt, order hands with a smaller diameter; it's easier to ream the hands bigger then to pinch them smaller.  Jules Borel is another good source.  Or you can try your luck with ebay; you might find a lot of misc. hands for a good price.

[watch_guy]

Anyway, having become a bit of a Frankenwatch, its now developing a habit of occasionally stopping when left face down. Would I be right in thinking that this is probably a sign of insufficient oil on the lower balance wheel pivot?

A late response I realize, but I noticed that this hadn't been answered.

A number of things can cause a watch to stop in one position, but too little oil is probably NOT one of them.

If it's anything oil related, it's probably too much oil in the pivot and not too little. The balance moves so fast that too much oil can cause just enough drag to stop it, especially if the watch is dirty and you're loosing power somewhere else in the train. Also, old, thick oil in the jewels can cause this.

Equally likely is that you're getting excess friction from somewhere else in that position. If this is an 18 size full plate, take a close look at the mainspring barrel. Since you mentioned replacing the mainspring, be absolutely sure that the cap is snapped down all the way all around the watch. If the spring has a T end, be sure it's seated correctly, and not causing a slight elevation of the barrel cap at that point.

Make sure the hairspring is perfectly flat(except for the overcoil if equipped). Make sure neither the hairspring nor the overcoil is rubbing on the underside of the balance cock. You may need to make slight adjustments to the hairspring if it is, as well as tweak the position of the stud.

Be sure neither the guard pin nor the pallet fork are rubbing on the roller table. This can be very difficult to see, although "painting" one of the parts with a magic marker and then running the watch can help track this down.

Be sure the balance itself isn't out of true and rubbing the balance cock or plate in certain positions.

Finally, you may have a balance pivot that's slightly "mushroomed" as the result of a drop, causing it to bind in one position. The only solution to this is to polish the pivot(using a balloon chuck in a lathe, or preferably on a Jacot lathe) or if it's really bad replace the staff.

Whatever the problem, though, I'd suggest thoroughly cleaning the balance jewels. You need to dissassemble the setting. Then, use sharpened pegwood to clean the cap jewel working surface until it's spotless. Peg out the hole jewel. Then, lubricate the assembly by placing a drop of oil on the cap jewel. The drop should be centered, and about 1/3 the diameter of the jewel(this is the correct amount of oil for a balance pivot). Reassemble the setting. Be sure you also clean the balance pivots-ideally by pressing them into soft pithwood.

[Ben Hudson, Esq.]

I have very little information about the watch... it is Swiss, made by Elida probably in the 1930s. It's not a well-known maker and the watch itself isn't helping much. The movement has nothing on it except 'SWISS MADE', 'TWO ADJUSTMENTS', 'ELIDA WATCH Co' and '10 JEWELS'. It's nearly identical to the one posted by Gepetto. The case is nearly the same but with a plain back. I presume it's steel.

The references to an "Elida" brand traces back to various German companies in the 20's and 30's.  The "two adjustments" and 10 jewels makes me think earlier, but its hard to say without a picture.  The case is probably some alloy (often referred to as nickleoid, silveroid, and various other trade names).  You might find a eubauch mark under the dial, or a mark under the balance, but it's unlikely.  If you can get the dial off, post a picture of the works under the dial; that and the diameter of the pillar plate might give me enough to get a maker for you.

HAC previously recommended ofrei.com, which seems to have the best selection of hands. Regarding size, is there any way of telling what size they should be, or shall I just get a micrometre, measure them and find a set here that matches?

I'm assuming you're talking about the post diameter?  If so, then yes, measuring the post with a micrometer is probably best.  When in doubt, order hands with a smaller diameter; it's easier to ream the hands bigger then to pinch them smaller.  Jules Borel is another good source.  Or you can try your luck with ebay; you might find a lot of misc. hands for a good price.

Hi. I make the plate 40mm, but that's being measured with an old and battered ruler, my steel rule is nowhere to be found, and I haven't got a micrometre yet.
Pictures:
Front without crystal and bezel. NB - the dial is a reproduction I made. As I recall, it's as accurate as I could make it, but the original was missing a few big chunks so I've had to take a few liberties.

Spoiler: ShowHide

Front with dial removed.

Spoiler: ShowHide

Rear showing markings on movement.

Spoiler: ShowHide

Rear full.

Spoiler: ShowHide

Higher resolution photos available, kept these small for a fast upload.

Anyway, having become a bit of a Frankenwatch, its now developing a habit of occasionally stopping when left face down. Would I be right in thinking that this is probably a sign of insufficient oil on the lower balance wheel pivot?

A late response I realize, but I noticed that this hadn't been answered.

A number of things can cause a watch to stop in one position, but too little oil is probably NOT one of them.

If it's anything oil related, it's probably too much oil in the pivot and not too little. The balance moves so fast that too much oil can cause just enough drag to stop it, especially if the watch is dirty and you're loosing power somewhere else in the train. Also, old, thick oil in the jewels can cause this.

Equally likely is that you're getting excess friction from somewhere else in that position. If this is an 18 size full plate, take a close look at the mainspring barrel. Since you mentioned replacing the mainspring, be absolutely sure that the cap is snapped down all the way all around the watch. If the spring has a T end, be sure it's seated correctly, and not causing a slight elevation of the barrel cap at that point.

Make sure the hairspring is perfectly flat(except for the overcoil if equipped). Make sure neither the hairspring nor the overcoil is rubbing on the underside of the balance cock. You may need to make slight adjustments to the hairspring if it is, as well as tweak the position of the stud.

Be sure neither the guard pin nor the pallet fork are rubbing on the roller table. This can be very difficult to see, although "painting" one of the parts with a magic marker and then running the watch can help track this down.

Be sure the balance itself isn't out of true and rubbing the balance cock or plate in certain positions.

Finally, you may have a balance pivot that's slightly "mushroomed" as the result of a drop, causing it to bind in one position. The only solution to this is to polish the pivot(using a balloon chuck in a lathe, or preferably on a Jacot lathe) or if it's really bad replace the staff.

Whatever the problem, though, I'd suggest thoroughly cleaning the balance jewels. You need to dissassemble the setting. Then, use sharpened pegwood to clean the cap jewel working surface until it's spotless. Peg out the hole jewel. Then, lubricate the assembly by placing a drop of oil on the cap jewel. The drop should be centered, and about 1/3 the diameter of the jewel(this is the correct amount of oil for a balance pivot). Reassemble the setting. Be sure you also clean the balance pivots-ideally by pressing them into soft pithwood.

Thanks for getting back to me, and with such an informative answer! When I have a moment I'll go through the checklist. It's possible that it has been damaged, unfortunately (it's been through the wars a bit).

Ben

[Ben Hudson, Esq.]

Spoiler: ShowHide

I have very little information about the watch... it is Swiss, made by Elida probably in the 1930s. It's not a well-known maker and the watch itself isn't helping much. The movement has nothing on it except 'SWISS MADE', 'TWO ADJUSTMENTS', 'ELIDA WATCH Co' and '10 JEWELS'. It's nearly identical to the one posted by Gepetto. The case is nearly the same but with a plain back. I presume it's steel.

The references to an "Elida" brand traces back to various German companies in the 20's and 30's.  The "two adjustments" and 10 jewels makes me think earlier, but its hard to say without a picture.  The case is probably some alloy (often referred to as nickleoid, silveroid, and various other trade names).  You might find a eubauch mark under the dial, or a mark under the balance, but it's unlikely.  If you can get the dial off, post a picture of the works under the dial; that and the diameter of the pillar plate might give me enough to get a maker for you.

HAC previously recommended ofrei.com, which seems to have the best selection of hands. Regarding size, is there any way of telling what size they should be, or shall I just get a micrometre, measure them and find a set here that matches?

I'm assuming you're talking about the post diameter?  If so, then yes, measuring the post with a micrometer is probably best.  When in doubt, order hands with a smaller diameter; it's easier to ream the hands bigger then to pinch them smaller.  Jules Borel is another good source.  Or you can try your luck with ebay; you might find a lot of misc. hands for a good price.

Hi. I make the plate 40mm, but that's being measured with an old and battered ruler, my steel rule is nowhere to be found, and I haven't got a micrometre yet.
Pictures:
Front without crystal and bezel. NB - the dial is a reproduction I made. As I recall, it's as accurate as I could make it, but the original was missing a few big chunks so I've had to take a few liberties.
[spoiler]

Front with dial removed.

Spoiler: ShowHide

Rear showing markings on movement.

Spoiler: ShowHide

Rear full.

Spoiler: ShowHide

Higher resolution photos available, kept these small for a fast upload.

Anyway, having become a bit of a Frankenwatch, its now developing a habit of occasionally stopping when left face down. Would I be right in thinking that this is probably a sign of insufficient oil on the lower balance wheel pivot?

A late response I realize, but I noticed that this hadn't been answered.

A number of things can cause a watch to stop in one position, but too little oil is probably NOT one of them.

If it's anything oil related, it's probably too much oil in the pivot and not too little. The balance moves so fast that too much oil can cause just enough drag to stop it, especially if the watch is dirty and you're loosing power somewhere else in the train. Also, old, thick oil in the jewels can cause this.

Equally likely is that you're getting excess friction from somewhere else in that position. If this is an 18 size full plate, take a close look at the mainspring barrel. Since you mentioned replacing the mainspring, be absolutely sure that the cap is snapped down all the way all around the watch. If the spring has a T end, be sure it's seated correctly, and not causing a slight elevation of the barrel cap at that point.

Make sure the hairspring is perfectly flat(except for the overcoil if equipped). Make sure neither the hairspring nor the overcoil is rubbing on the underside of the balance cock. You may need to make slight adjustments to the hairspring if it is, as well as tweak the position of the stud.

Be sure neither the guard pin nor the pallet fork are rubbing on the roller table. This can be very difficult to see, although "painting" one of the parts with a magic marker and then running the watch can help track this down.

Be sure the balance itself isn't out of true and rubbing the balance cock or plate in certain positions.

Finally, you may have a balance pivot that's slightly "mushroomed" as the result of a drop, causing it to bind in one position. The only solution to this is to polish the pivot(using a balloon chuck in a lathe, or preferably on a Jacot lathe) or if it's really bad replace the staff.

Whatever the problem, though, I'd suggest thoroughly cleaning the balance jewels. You need to dissassemble the setting. Then, use sharpened pegwood to clean the cap jewel working surface until it's spotless. Peg out the hole jewel. Then, lubricate the assembly by placing a drop of oil on the cap jewel. The drop should be centered, and about 1/3 the diameter of the jewel(this is the correct amount of oil for a balance pivot). Reassemble the setting. Be sure you also clean the balance pivots-ideally by pressing them into soft pithwood.

Thanks for getting back to me, and with such an informative answer! When I have a moment I'll go through the checklist. It's possible that it has been damaged, unfortunately (it's been through the wars a bit).

Ben[/spoiler]

'Steeth, those photos are bad. If you need better ones, just let me know.

[Abslomrob]

Hi. I make the plate 40mm, but that's being measured with an old and battered ruler, my steel rule is nowhere to be found, and I haven't got a micrometre yet.

Hmm...40mm would probably be a 17-19''' watch (38mm to 42mm).  The keyless plate looks a bit like what Longines or Moeris used, but I don't see a direct match to anything.  However, are there pieces missing?  There looks like there might have been a piece to the upper right of the stem, and possibly a second screw on the plate.