UK Sutlers Store/19th Century Tailoring (Buyer Beware)

[Platernian]

19th Century Sutlers read, 19th Century Service, that is. your response to email would be quicker if it was delivered by steam train! I am currently 209.00 down and over 3 months later still waiting clothes. However, I have today put into action plans to shut these people down. I do not like being ripped off and that is essentially what is happening here. May I suggest that anyone who has been had by this "business"? send their complaint to the Office of Fair Trading UK. and start a "Small Claim" at the small claims court (online)https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/going-to-court

The most annoying aspect for me, apart from potentially losing money, is the repeated statement that "They are SO busy"! if that were the case they would be making enough money to employ an administrator to answer emails!!

[Major Willoughby Chase]

Have you had any progress on this Platernian? Got your money, or your goods?

Also a timely bump for this thread, I've had a few people ask me, recently, about 19th Century Tailoring and I've been happy to refer them to this thread for my honest experience with them. However, always good to keep these warnings to forum users visible.

[Lady Dent]

Re: "19th Century Tailors"

We ordered two of their Civil War Officers Frock Coats (Union Army) - we asked for Victorian buttons and a few other re-designs for the Royal Steam Navy and they were very accomodating - also two pairs of the "duck" trousers, again well made.

On the downside they were very difficult to contact either my phone and e-mail.   I wasn't aware that they used Tailors form Pakistan/India which opens a few ethical concerns about "Sweatshops" etc. I hope they pay the staff commencerate to what we pay them (19th C.) and that working conditions are up to scratch.

[redmenes]

I received a waistcoat and napoleonic trousers a week aga.
the waistcoat is beautiful but has only 4 buttoms instead of authentically 6 but the trousers look dreadful!
they are 2 sizes too big and look like a hessian sack.
they absolutely dont look like on the pictures on their website.
they delivered thje wrong xolour too.
i asked for a partial refund,but i only get a poor reply that they dont do that.
i am very disappointed.
i can place a picture of the trousers here to verify how awful they look.

[Bacter]

Well this thread just saved me a few bob, I was thinking of ordering a waistcoat (as hard to find the style I like in my size), but that lack of comments/ review section on their site worried me. Now I know why.

[Trooper Nikolai]

Hi

Did everybody get there stuff from 19th century tailoring?
Anybody know a place that does custom uniforms? Preferably in the uk
want to get myself a hussars uniform, the whole hog so to speak.

Thanks

[Argus Fairbrass]

Hi!

I didn't order from them in the end, and really can't answer that question. But to say feedback about this company remains mixed is putting it extremely charitably.

Although not in the UK, these guys have been mentioned up thread, and I haven't heard a bad review of them yet.

http://www.replicaters.com/

I would say if you are looking at spending the kind of money a whole uniform can cost. It's really worth considering spending that bit extra (which I assume would mainly come from shipping and customs charges) on getting it done properly.

[Argus Fairbrass]

Well this thread just saved me a few bob, I was thinking of ordering a waistcoat (as hard to find the style I like in my size), but that lack of comments/ review section on their site worried me. Now I know why.

Apologies for lack of replies in this thread, personally I hadn't actually looked at it for quite a while. If you happen to pop back and see this Mr Bacter (or indeed anybody). These guys are definitely up and comers, and their standard of work appears to be improving all the time.

http://www.prometheusg.moonfruit.com/

[Major Willoughby Chase]

UK makers there are quite a few, the main difference between the makers here and in India/Pakistan is the price you're going to pay/hour for the tailoring, the secondary difference is that if you have to post anything back to India, it's going to cost you an arm and a leg.

In the UK, despite having not used him yet it is my intention to do so, Prometheus Gearing - he has a very large collection of period military patterns and source books.

http://www.prometheusg.moonfruit.com/
https://www.facebook.com/PrometheusG
http://www.etsy.com/uk/shop/PrometheusGearing?ref=pr_shop_more

[Major Willoughby Chase]

ah-ha ... fools seldom differ, lol.

[Trooper Nikolai]

Thanks guys

Been looking at the sutlers website for quite a while, they do the style of uniform i am after. But after hearing all the horror stories, and seeing all the good things said about replicators(even believe they make the stuff for sutlers?) i shall go there and order. any idea on where to get boots? other leather equipment i.e. catridge box, pistol holster to fit colt dragoon, sword frog and sabretache? also head wear like shakos or busbys?

cheers

[Capt. Dirigible]

Thanks guys

Been looking at the sutlers website for quite a while, they do the style of uniform i am after. But after hearing all the horror stories, and seeing all the good things said about replicators(even believe they make the stuff for sutlers?) i shall go there and order. any idea on where to get boots? other leather equipment i.e. catridge box, pistol holster to fit colt dragoon, sword frog and sabretache? also head wear like shakos or busbys?

cheers

You aren't going to get that stuff cheap..or even 'reasonably priced'. Proper replica Hussars' kit is going to set you back quite a bit.

[Trooper Nikolai]

agreed,

on sutlers, for the dolman and pelisse would have cost about£1.200 or so, thats not a problem and for good workmanship i don't mind paying that, just need an idea of where to get the kit from, and a place thats reliable and trustworthy.

heres a list:

Shako/busby
Pelisse
Dolman
barrel sash
Trousers
Boots
then leather kit etc

[Argus Fairbrass]

I think part of the problem we have here at present is quite simply a lack of competition. There can be little doubt Sutlers put one hell of a mark up on anything they import. But they are pretty much the only people currently offering this service, so they can get away with it and a fair few other liberties besides.

It's a lot of work to make some of these garments no doubt, but nevertheless I am expecting to see at least one or two more places materialise as interest grows again. Hopefully pricing will become a little more competitive in the future if so.

Again I have not bought from this chap so can't attest to the quality myself. But I have heard good things and his prices seem reasonable.

http://www.pistol-leather.co.uk/

[NHB1973]

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen of the Brass Goggles Forum,
I have just read all your comments regarding 19th Century Tailoring/Sutlers Stores and I see that you have a lot to say about me. Yes, sometimes I make mistakes and on occasions take longer to deliver than I would like but then I don't profess to being perfect and I am extremely busy. However I am genuinely sorry for the problems you've mentioned.
However the comments above contain a lot of rumours and a few lies, so if I may I would like to state the truth...
Firstly, I make everything here in the UK in my workroom/studio in Bournemouth. When we started the business back in 1998 we used to import all our leather products from the USA, as we got busier our supplier couldn't keep up with the volumes we were ordering, so eventually our supplier told us that he got the items from Pakistan and gave us the name of the manufacturers. Over the years we imported hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of leather and embroidery products from a great many suppliers in Pakistan and India. Naturally from time to time they used to send us samples when they introduced something new. One time about 10 years ago we were sent some US Civil War uniforms by one of them, they were pretty awful and we did not order any. In fact we used them to demonstrate the difference in quality between ourselves and their shoddy exports. The only clothing we imported for resale were plain and pleated shirts for ACW re-enactors but due to quality issues we stopped doing this over 5 years ago.
We are not and never have been supplied by Replicaters with any goods for resale. They have copied without my permission (i.e. stolen) images from my website, we have taken legal advice but it is virtually impossible for us to bring a copyright action (or any other type of enforcement) against companies in these parts of the world. It's fair to say that our images turn up on many other traders sites, we take action where we can and when we are told about them by customers. I would be interested to see any garments that any of you have ordered from them to see if they live up to the images of my work! So, Herr Doktor - I do not know who has informed you that they supply us, but it is complete and utter tosh. Everything on my website I make myself, occasionally one of my former members of staff  will help me – but she has retired so can only help on certain days. And for your concerns about sweatshop workers, I know with the weather being so hot these past few months my workroom has been pretty warm – but I wouldn't describe it as sweaty!
To the gentleman who I could not meet with because I fell down the stairs – I FELL DOWN THE STAIRS and badly sprained my ankle, I was collected by ambulance and spent most of the day in A&E. It is still causing me problems, If he had turned up the day before as arranged, he would have had no opportunity to criticise me, as it is he has managed to turn my accident into some kind of dark conspiracy. What he also neglects to mention is that he received his order shortly afterwards and as I've heard nothing from him to the contrary, I can only assume that he was satisfied.
For those people who lost money when Sutlers Stores went bust - I am truly sorry and will always feel terrible about it. At that time we had 8 people working in the business, we all carried on making uniforms and shipping out orders (without pay) until the bailiff turned the power off . We did everything we could to notify people via our website and posts on other forums that they should be able to get their money back via their card companies. Most people took this advice and were successful. You may have noticed that there has been an economic crisis and we were caught up in it, as were many much bigger companies not to mention high street banks. I lost my property as a result of it and much more, we did not profit from it in anyway.
To the Gentleman who ordered a vest which although ' the waistcoat is beautiful but has only 4 buttons instead of authentically 6' I show this vest with only 4 buttons on my website I have always made it with 4 buttons unless someone has asked for more buttons. As for the trousers I know I made them in the wrong colour cloth but there was a reason for this, the order had previously been completed and shipped to but never arrived with the customer. For the initial order I used the last of the cloth in the correct colour. Due to the urgency of his requirement I had to then use the closest colour possible. However I think 'hessian sack' must be quite different in Germany to the UK because they were definitely made from wool. Not the most fantastic superfine wool of the originals but wool all the same. And finally on this subject, I would have taken them back and refunded him completely however by the time he told me he was unhappy with them he had already taken them to a tailor to have them altered. I cannot accept back goods that are not in the same state as they were when delivered – I think you will all agree this is a standard trading condition.
Unlike many of the people who make different things for Re-enactors, I am not a 'work from home part time enthusiastic amateur'. I spent 5 years at college and University to gain my qualifications and have been making uniforms and costume for nearly 20 years. I am also a part time Tutor in Costume Making at University level.
Due to the demand I usually work over 70 hours a week and then I'm trying to reply to emails late into the night, which is maybe why my customer service appears to be slow to you. I'm also a lady of few words however I do reserve the right to vent my spleen and this is one of those times – so I apologise if I am going on a bit but please bear with me...
I try and answer as many emails as quickly as possible, I stopped having a telephone number due to the countless 'cold caller' sales calls which were driving me mad – there are only so many times a girl can be asked if she has ever thought about changing her energy provider or needs help with a PPI claim! This is not unusual these days, there are many companies large and small that have withdrawn their telephone service.
To the gentleman who suggested I get an administrator to answer emails – just because I am busy does not mean I can afford to pay someone to answer emails for me.... Well not unless I put my prices up! I do my best to respond to enquiries but keep in mind there is only one of me and literally hundreds of you! I spend a lot of time answering emails from random people who are never intending to order, or are enquiring how long their order will be when they only ordered a few days before (delivery times are on the website) or people giving me no info - i.e: no full name, address or date of order and using an email address that in no way relates to the name on the order and then expecting me to know the answer to -' Hi, when will my order be ready? Regards John'!! However, I am making a concerted effort to answer emails more quickly.
Ok, I am going to stop now. I am sorry I have upset you, however I do have plenty of customers who come back to me time and time again so I'm guessing that I am doing something right. I notice that people on the web in many cases hiding their identity are quick to complain and rumour monger but are slow to commend. There are some of you who have contributed to this who have received goods from me and apart from one who was pleased with the items and has now been put off by you guys telling her she's buying from a sweatshop in India – which she is not! And one guy whose sleeves were too short – sorry, I do not know who you are so I am unable to comment, none of the rest of you have actually said that you have been pleased (or displeased) with what you have received.
Kind Regards
Nancy Beardall – 19th Century Tailoring, Bournemouth
"You can please some of the people some of the time all of the people some of the time some of the people all of the time but you can never please all of the people all of the time."

― Abraham Lincoln

[Sludge Van Diesel]

If you're fed up with cold callers register your business number with the Corporate Telephone Preference Service. 

[Argus Fairbrass]

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen of the Brass Goggles Forum, *snip*

I'm assuming this thread is popping up a bit in regards to on line searches for your store. I'd like to say for starters I think it's a good thing you've replied. If this proves anything it's that you can't put a price on positive PR, and I'm afraid warranted or not Mrs Beardall you must admit yours is mixed at present.

I'm very glad to hear as I'm sure many of us are that there is no exploitation occurring. I mean we're all big boys and girls and we understand it happens a lot with the clothing industry as with many others, that doesn't mean we're all happy about it. I can't comment on Replicaters ethical practices or standard of product personally as I've never dealt with them. All I know is I've never heard any aspersions cast on them or their conduct until now. But I agree it is the case that photos featuring the same model (yours I assume) appear on both your and their respective sites, which may well be fanning the flames so to speak.

I do know that comments regarding lack of communication from you have been made repeatedly. I think the main rub with that is the inference that everything is fine until money exchanges hands. Again a problem that I feel despite the inconvenience it would be highly advisable to address, if only for the sake of reputation.

As with a great many things, the internet has rather moved the goal posts when it comes to promotion. It has never been easier to find information and feedback on businesses. Indeed it is something that as consumers we are well advised to do. I see there is a feedback page on your site which seems positive. But obviously folks do talk, and if they have negative experiences there are indeed plenty of outlets where they can now very publicly report them.

In my experience, customers who often don't even know each other seldom conspire to start mean spirited smear campaigns against businesses for no good reason. And so I'm afraid, regardless of the truth there will always be a perception that there is no smoke without fire. It does seem to be the fact that you are dealing with a bit of smoke right now. I realise you are busy and customers are indeed often demanding. But nevertheless, putting aside some time in order to make a concerted effort to douse that, would be the soundest advice I can offer.

Best Regards.

[Siliconous Skumins]

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen of the Brass Goggles Forum,

<snip>

Well it's good that you have responded to the criticism handed out towards your services, however I feel that it is not hard to guess why you chose to do so:



Given we are a mere four links below your shop link (Google search for "UK Sutlers Store"), and the link directly above ours is not exactly good for business either, I can't but help feel this is merely a late attempt at damage control - whether or not this may be the case, this is how it appears.



That aside, and assuming you are genuine in your comments (and I have no reason to think otherwise), might I suggest that in order to improve your business reputation, that you take the step of declining new work when you are busy - from what you say, you have been doing this long enough that you know how many orders you can realistically complete in a given time. Taking on too much work is bound to cause the issues you are seeing.

Also I strongly suggest you redesign your website to reflect that you are a small independent tailoring store, as your current layout tends to give the impression that you are a much larger bulk item store on par with "The Gentlemans Emporium" or similar high volume stores. This is one of the reasons your customers seem so demanding - they are expecting the same sort of fast response that is available to high volume stores that outsource the manufacturing or have their own dedicated high volume manufacturing business...

Lastly, with regards to your pictures being used elsewhere, you need to mark all of them with a digital watermark. While this won't stop the determend thief, it will make it much more difficult to use them as is! This is a common tactic with most large websites.

Those three steps alone could save you a headache, and possibly your business.


I must point out I have never ordered anything from you, so I cannot comment on that side of things.

SS

[Arkwright]

This has been useful, particularly Major Tinkers honest summery of what is available across the board.

I am currently planning on commissioning a uniform (Staffordshire Yeomanry) from Prometheus Gearing, as he can work from the uniform regulations issued by the war department.

It is always difficult to buy when you can't try something on and the maker can't do a fitting at an early stage of manufacture. Over the years I've had pretty mixed results from other people, and from my own attempts.

If I were to give advice - use someone you know, and give them a chance to do a fitting, and be prepared to pay for the work you are commissioning - because these garments are a lot of work.

Regards.

A.

[punkinhead]

Hello all and specifically to Mrs. Beardall!

I am writing on this forum, much too late, in hope that Mrs. Beardall may address my concerns and as a further warning to all.

   On the 20th of Sept. 2013 I ordered Frock coat CT029. On the 24th I corresponded with her making a size adjustment and asking if the 12 week shipping was dependent on how busy she was. On the 29th, our last correspondence, she replied that she was "not too horrendously busy at present so the beginning of November should be fine". 4 1/2 months later, and after belatedly reading this forum, I have realized that this must have been sarcasm! On the 25th of Sept. this forum received her excuse laden, "spleen venting" response to all the bad press. This was in the midst of our correspondence! This business is either a scam or one of the worse run businesses. It has been up to the same shenanigans as before the turnaround reboot of the bankrupt Sutlers UK as 19th Century Clothiers. If this business is legitimate, and there is some evidence that it is, then I would like to hope that I will eventually receive my order. I understand that a one person business will have its difficulties. My tailor is such and my orders are never on time. I have to call to remind him of my order! Not good for business but his business is good. So is his product. If or when I receive my order and it meets or exceeds my expectations, I will sing high praises about 19th Century. Of course with the caveat that one needs to exorcise extreme patience. In the meantime, since I have yet to get any further correspondence, I fear that I may be one of those "unpleased" customers who were left with no frock on their back and several "pounds" lighter due to bankruptcy. If replies to "e-mail" are too time consuming then it would be nice if a post on the web site, updating the many customers that are in the same situation, quelled any fears. Stop taking orders if it is too much to handle! Or is this a case of trying to "please all the people"? A business needs to have an attitude of wanting to please all of their customers while realizing the impossibility. A customer has to be given options. If they still are not satisfied. . .at least you tried. I have only the option to wait, perhaps to not receive, perhaps to receive less that satisfactory product. I await a response.
                                          Sincerely,
                                                     Marc Duardo

[punkinhead]

As of today, I have received a full refund. The search for a good quality 100% wool frock coat continues.

[Major Willoughby Chase]

Just over five months from order to refund... speedy service. Honestly she really isn't doing herself any favours.  Glad to hear you got a refund.

[Clym Angus]

As a minor maker (but these things scale up) the customer is key. Fight dissatisfaction with more vim than you make your product and things will go well.

This is why at 1 am I'm out on the internet sourcing washers and more links, there are commissions to be made. but NEVER take on more business than you can handle.

If people value your quality they will wait, but communication is imperative. Money has to be taken up front some times for certain businesses, if this is so then the customer has to have a clear idea of what will happen and when. The last thing any business needs is the bad press that's generated when someone thinks they've been ripped.

Each business is different I appreciate that, but the basics of service stand.

[Argus Fairbrass]

As of today, I have received a full refund. The search for a good quality 100% wool frock coat continues.

Again, never ordered from any of them so can't attest to quality. But it does seem you guys Stateside have a slightly wider choice for this kind of thing than we do. As always I recommend a thorough net search for unbiased feedback, before ordering from anyone.

http://www.denisenadinedesign.com/Mens%20Victorian.htm

http://denverbespoke.com/?cat=141

http://www.ushist.com/19th-century_mens_frock_coat_suit_f.shtml

[punkinhead]

Thank you very much for the leads, Mr. Fairbrass! If I have any other comments or info on frock coats should I attach it to an appropriate thread or start a new one?