How not to Kickstart, a lesson and a warning for those chasing the Brass Pound

[Thundy]

Hi guys,

Ive been a steampunk fan for a very long time and have finally decided to use my contacts as a professional photographer, to make an art book, spread across the entire genre, It will contain short stories, photographs, artwork, interviews, and feature weddings and other steampunk occasions.

I have a kickstarter project live since yesterday the link to which is :  http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1881849125/steampunk

Whilst i understand that not everyone can contribute financially, I would love it if people could spread the word and get the attention of designers, manufacturers, and other enthusiasts.

I'm really enthusiastic about this project and I love the idea of being able to offer paid work to writers, designers, artists and models who might otherwise remain unknown.

Everyone who donates will get behind the scenes interviews and images, and regular updates on the projects progress.

Many thanks in advance

Matt

Edit - Willoughby
Just in case he ever takes the funding page down, here it is in all it's glory. Click for very large version.

[Thundy]

Hey guys,

im putting together a steampunk art book, for models, photographers, artists, designers and stylists to showcase their work. it will cover the entire genre and feature a section on events such as weddings and cons.

I'd really love to share my kickstarter project with you, so that you may help me spread the good word and let people know about it. whilst i know many people cannot afford to contribute themselves, simply sharing the link and getting the attention of people who in fact may be able to, is greatly appreciated.

Many thanks my friends

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1881849125/steampunk

[FenrisWolf]

Apologies for sounding a bit incredulous, but £40,000 for you to produce a book of other peoples work.
I'm guessing that those that contribute to your fund will be the people featured in the book?

As a photographer I've been offered 'features' in books before either as parts of a rights grab to build a photo library, or as a book that basically only gets sent out to people who subscribe - in other words pay - to be in it. These have offered their great deals from £250 upwards... And I told them to go and whistle dixie!

But £40K - and in one month!



I wish you luck.

[Thundy]

I agree it is a lot of money, but once you take out the 5% that kickstarter charge, then the 25% that the Gov't will take, you are only left with £28500. The cost of a decent shoot is in the vicinity of £500 once you include models, makeup artists, studio or location, rental of costumes, travel expenses for all concerned etc etc.  My aim is to actually pay other contributors such as artists, writers designers etc, which again wont be cheap. If i were just knocking up a cheap and cheerful mediocre set of images from TF shoots, i would agree it is a lot of money, but you get what you pay for.

30 days is a short amount of time, but the Kickstarter guys seem to think that is the optimum amount of time.

Will have to wait and see what the outcome is. You don't know until you try.

[Madasasteamfish]

This thread will probably end up being moved into trading since it's essentially an open begging letter.

But again, you'll have to forgive me for sounding incredulous, but £40 grand (even the £30 grand you say you'd end up getting) seems a lot to make a book of other people's work, particularly given the fact that a good number of people from the community would probably be willing to contribute their work for (next to) nothing (and several of them would probably be willing to cover whatever you'd be laying out to get them out of their own pocket). And even if you were able to get the money, you'd make a massive loss in publishing it (you're never going to shift enough copies to make £30 grand simply because there's not enough appeal for something like this).

I'll admit I'm willing to be lenient with you because you seem new, but almost no-one in the community makes their living from their SP work, or even if they do, it's usually a small part of a much wider work stream and so they're happy enough to exhibit their work for a small (or non-existent) fee provided they get credited. If you want a good/better idea of the cost of doing something like this it might be worth chatting to Arkwright, or other members of the VSS about the cost of producing the 'Asylum Chronicles'.

[Thundy]

I should clarify, and if you read the kickstart page you will see that i'm not just compiling a book of other people's work. I'm actually doing a large amount of shooting myself. I have already funded a portion of the project out of my own pocket, and I am not getting paid. If the project does get funded, 100% of the money raised, goes into the project itself.

I can understand the scepticism, as i would be the same if it were someone else posting, but i ask you to at least read the project before passing judgement. It does say on the page why the number is £40k.

I understand that 90% of the people reading this post will see it as a begging letter, especially those who dont "get" what kickstart is about, or don't read the page and just knee-jerk when they see the numbers.

I cant really make my case any further so i'll leave it at that. I appreciate the support of anyone who take the time to read and share my idea.

[FenrisWolf]

I understand what Kickstarter is about and have joined in with various projects on there.

But I do a lot of work in the publishing industry, I have a lot of friends and contacts what not only work in that industry but are writers and photographers who have books published. Some of them quite famous writers/photographers. I can safely say that no book costs £40K to design, produce, market and print. If they did the publishers would be out of business before the first book was even printed.

I think you need to do a lot more research in to the publishing industry as well as working out costs and what you would likely be able to charge for the book and how many copies you are likely to sell. And Kickstarter rewards... If I contributed £5000 I would want more than a couple of prints, a canvas and a copy of the book!

[Thundy]

Well to each their own. I haven't asked you to join my project, or even fund it. All I've asked for is to share the link. I am a professional photographer and I know how much a shoot costs to organise. I would have thought that Steampunk fans would at least be supportive of the idea, rather than just picking holes.

My project probably wont get funded, but that wont stop me trying. I have an artistic idea, I'm not hurting anyone in trying to achieve it, and If i don't reach the goal amount, I won't sulk or tuck my tail between my legs, I will simply try and find another way of making my vision a reality.

By all means keep firing negativity my way though as all it does is make me more resolved to achieve my goal.

When I'm a fan or enthusiast of something, and someone has an idea, I encourage them. because worst case scenario, in a years time you can say "remember that guy who tried to make that book before?"  and the other eventuality, an awesome Book about something you are a fan off is on the shelves for you to look at.

[Madasasteamfish]

Well sorry if you don't like our contributions, but really I think all we've done is try to bring you down to earth (even if the journey has been a little bumpy) and offer useful feedback. If you don't like criticism then I'd suggest you don't post somewhere like here, where most people have a tendency to offer their honest opinions and speak their minds.

There's no malicious intent in what we've said, I mean if you take the time to look around the forum a lot of threads like this follow a pattern of;

Person 1: I've just had a brilliant idea, it's 'x'
Person 2: Actually that's a pretty good idea, wish I'd come up with it. How do you plan on doing it?
Person 3: This might help 'link to a thread proposing a similar idea'
Person 4: Cool. Keep us posted with developments.
Person 1: Well my plan was this: yadda yadda, blah blah blah.
Persons 2, 3 and 4: Sounds like you've thought it out and have a decent, workable plan. Are you going to be following 'x person's' suggestions?
Person 5: Interesting idea, but how you plan on getting round 'y'?
Person 1: Oh I hadn't thought about that. Any suggestions?
Person 6: Well when I had that problem during my project 'z' I got round by doing 'a'
Person 5: I've seen 'b' being used by other people and heard of 'a' working, but I personally always use 'c'
Person 1: Oh, I've got a bit of 'product e' (used in 'a') lying around but wouldn't have thought about using it
for 'a'

and so on and so forth. Usually if someone has a good idea, that people can picture working and 'having legs' we will fully encourage them and offer support, and if their idea doesn't then we'll try and help them tinker with it and offer them advice as to how the can improve it.

But, getting back to the point, in all honesty, none of the information you've given makes me want to contribute, or even try and get others to contribute since it seems you've made almost every mistake you possibly could make and more importantly, there's nothing that makes me think 'yes this project needs this HUGE amount of money to work'. The only feasible reason I can think of as to why you'd need that much is if you were planning on using professionals (i.e. models, designers and make up artists etc.) throughout every stage of the project, but when you've said you've done a lot of the work so far yourself it makes me wonder why you'd want to get professionals in, and you could easily do the entire project for a fraction of the proposed cost if you got involved in the community and asked people to get involved.

But the problem is if you are going to be using professionals no one in the community is going to be interested in the finished project simply because of the skepticism we've all learned to approach anything labeled 'Steampunk' that comes from outside the community, thereby cutting off a huge chunck (and tbh probably the better part) of your potential customers. And to top all off even if you get enough people interested to fund it, and get the money you say you need, and manage to put something out there, it's going to be a massive flop and there's no way you'll be able to get your money back (simply because the potential market is too small and the fact no one would be willing to pay the amount you'd have to charge for it in order to make the project profitable).

[Madasasteamfish]

Word to the wise mate, you should be careful duplicating threads like this.

We don't like spammers here, and the mods tend to take a dim view of people trying to spam the forum.

[George Salt]

I think you're strategy with Kickstarter is on the wrong track.

Conventional Kickstarter wisdom is that you seek to generate the bulk of funds using KS to generate paid-for pre-orders having demonstrated an investment of your own resources to get the project part way before seeking backing to complete.  I don't see one relevant image or any evidence you've invested any time in preparatory work, I see only a very large ask (£40k) and no justification of how you reached it.  A fag packet calculation could be shown at the very least.

By the way, why are you worried about HMRC taking 25% - surely that only applies if your revenue from the KS campaign greatly exceeds your true costs, and surely you're not proposing a KS campaign for the purposes of financing your own income?  You're surely doing it to finance a project that will incur a cost to complete?

Sorry, but I'm out..

[Drew P]

Would you happen to have a list of all the contributors/artists?

[Thundy]

Posting a thread in two places due to the first post being less appropriate doesnt make me a spammer.

I appreciate the pearls of wisdom from strangers. As i said before, if you don't have any way to demonstrate that you are actually qualified to make such recommendations, then i will completely ignore it, and i really dont care if you think it is a lt of money or not, that is the project goal.. end of discussion.

If you don't want to contribute, i honestly don't care. And i really don't need to know your reasons, no matter how much you feel you need to share them with me. And "be lenient with me"?? you don't speak for the entire community and you sure as heck dont have any authority over me. I'm not going to stop my project just because a handful of forumites think that Hiring professionals to do a job in some way makes it less authentic. You don't own the monopoly on the genre any more than someone who learns klingon has the right to tell people they cant write fan fiction about star trek.

As for "justifying" my costs, with a bunch of strangers, that isnt going to happen. Ive been a photographer and engineering contractor for a long time and i know how much it costs to get things done. I'm certainly not posting my financial and tax calculations all over the net for the world to scrutinise.

It really is this simple. If you want to contribute, your support is gratefully accepted. If you don't want to contribute, save yourself the effort of telling me why, because ill ignore it, just move on.

Mods are welcome to delete this thread if they wish. Since i've had nothing but negativity hidden behind false reason and imaginary expertise, i'm past caring. Excellent way to introduce new people into your community by the way. Think i'll stick with the thousand other steampunk forums, where i've had wonderful support and encouragement.

[DreamHazard]

Posting a thread in two places due to the first post being less appropriate doesnt make me a spammer.

posting a thread asking for money in several places IS regarded as spam on this community. The board is split into appropriate sections, and the rules are pretty clear as to where things should go; you show us disrespect by not adhering to them.

I appreciate the pearls of wisdom from strangers. As i said before, if you don't have any way to demonstrate that you are actually qualified to make such recommendations, then i will completely ignore it, and i really dont care if you think it is a lt of money or not, that is the project goal.. end of discussion.

We get people on here asking for money all the time. We see patterns in people's requests and know how to point them in the right direction.

If you don't want to contribute, i honestly don't care. And i really don't need to know your reasons, no matter how much you feel you need to share them with me. And "be lenient with me"?? you don't speak for the entire community and you sure as heck dont have any authority over me. I'm not going to stop my project just because a handful of forumites think that Hiring professionals to do a job in some way makes it less authentic. You don't own the monopoly on the genre any more than someone who learns klingon has the right to tell people they cant write fan fiction about star trek.

Way to make us feel involved in your project.

As for "justifying" my costs, with a bunch of strangers, that isnt going to happen. Ive been a photographer and engineering contractor for a long time and i know how much it costs to get things done. I'm certainly not posting my financial and tax calculations all over the net for the world to scrutinise.

if you were to go to the bank to ask them for money, you'd have to have a damn good proposal, including, yes, justification for your costs. Why should crowdfunding be any different? You expect a bunch of people to give you something for nothing out of the kindness of their hearts, and expect us to just accept your assurance that all the money is going into the project.

It really is this simple. If you want to contribute, your support is gratefully accepted. If you don't want to contribute, save yourself the effort of telling me why, because ill ignore it, just move on.

It really is this simple. If you want us to give you money, don't treat us like scum.

Mods are welcome to delete this thread if they wish. Since i've had nothing but negativity hidden behind false reason and imaginary expertise, i'm past caring. Excellent way to introduce new people into your community by the way. Think i'll stick with the thousand other steampunk forums, where i've had wonderful support and encouragement.

people have made an effort to help you, and you've thrown it in their faces. You claim we haven't welcomed you into the community, well you'd have been a lot more welcome if you hadn't asked us for money the same day you'd joined. This is a community built on trust, and that trust has to be earned. If you'd spent maybe a week or two getting to know people before asking them for money, they may have been a lot more accepting of your request; and you may have learned for yourself how better to propose your ideas.

this so-called "negativity hidden behind false reason and imaginary expertise" is your perception of people trying to help you. No-one's told you to piss off, and believe me, if that's what they were thinking, that's what they would have said. The "false" reason is just plain reason. YOU'RE pitching to US, we're just telling you how to make us more likely to back your idea, because at the moment your proposal is pretty thin. The "imaginary" expertise comes from a community of makers, illustrators, photographers, many of whom have forged a lifestyle of their creativity, and have a hell of a lot more experience in this field than your proposal suggests you have. Perhaps taking their advice might be the better course of action?

As for all those communities where you've had wonderful support and encouragement, that's clearly reflected in the number of people who have backed your project already. I'll save people the effort of clicking through to find out how much backing you've had: 0.

[FenrisWolf]

I appreciate the pearls of wisdom from strangers.

These would be the same "Strangers" that you are asking for money to fund your project.

As i said before, if you don't have any way to demonstrate that you are actually qualified to make such recommendations, then i will completely ignore it, and i really dont care if you think it is a lot of money or not, that is the project goal.. end of discussion.

Qualified to make such recommendations...

Okay...

As I mentioned in an earlier post I work in the industry, but let me expand on that...

• I've worked in design/photography/publishing industries for 26 years.
• I also work as a photographer in the publishing world and in the corporate event and portrait sectors.
• I've worked with the majority of the biggest publishers in the UK as well as in Europe and the US.
• I am good friends (as in go around to theirs houses at xmas) with directors/owners of several of these companies.
• I am friends with several world famous photographers who have produced books themselves and have an international track record of their books being sold.
  - One of which will be coming around for a few drinks at the weekend.

I spoke about your 'idea' to a publisher last night, in fact I showed them your Kickstarter page... and they were just as shocked and astounded as the rest of us! He went on to say that it just isn't viable. If you went to a publisher with this idea it would be rejected from the off.

As also previously mentioned; I think you need to do a lot more research in to the publishing industry as well as working out costs and what you would likely be able to charge for the book and how many copies you are likely to sell.

I am hoping that you don't take this attitude on other forums that you have wandered in to. A lot of the member here are all members at places like thesteampunkempire  

[Madasasteamfish]

If you don't want to contribute, i honestly don't care. And i really don't need to know your reasons, no matter how much you feel you need to share them with me. And "be lenient with me"?? you don't speak for the entire community and you sure as heck dont have any authority over me. I'm not going to stop my project just because a handful of forumites think that Hiring professionals to do a job in some way makes it less authentic. You don't own the monopoly on the genre any more than someone who learns klingon has the right to tell people they cant write fan fiction about star trek.

You know mate, if this is your response to people trying to help you improve your pitch, and offer you information as to how to get more people involved then tbh, this project, and you both deserve to fail miserably.

I don't presume to speak for the entire community, and neither does anyone else, but we've all spent a lot more in the community than you have, so it might help you if you actually recognise the fact that we probably know more about a subculture we've been involved with (in some cases for several years) than someone who's just turned up begging for money off us, and proceeds to get all uppity when we offer improvements to their cr*p pitch.

[Kieranfoy]

Yeah, man, if you want to beg fourty flippin' thou from folks, they're gonna need a basic breakdown of how it's gonna be spent. Not being unreasonable, here, but the whole thing screams either halfarsed project or blatant scam, and throwing a temper rantrum never helps.

Seen the same thing on modding forums. Some newbie comes in with an unworkabley huge idea, demands support, and pitches a hissy cow when people politely refuse to help and point out the flaws.

At this pont, not much to do but pass the popcorn.

[Drew P]

And no answer for my question.

So...to 'help',a good thing would be to have contributors(artists) BEFORE starting a campaign to make sure that said campaign would actually seem viable and credible.



You came off so sure of yourself and, then, now, 'I don't care'....

O, nevermind.

[Madasasteamfish]

And no answer for my question.

So...to 'help',a good thing would be to have contributors(artists) BEFORE starting a campaign to make sure that said campaign would actually seem viable and credible.



You came off so sure of yourself and, then, now, 'I don't care'....

O, nevermind.

Don't forget the fact that with throwing a hissy fit and whinging about people offering advice to help you improve your pitch you've waved goodbye to any potential contribution (financial and or material) from approximately 90something% of the members here (which probably equates to approximately 70% of Steampunks worldwide) so good luck getting funded.

pass the popcorn

[FenrisWolf]

Don't look at me! Heckler has the popcorn, and the greedy sod hasn't passed it over yet!

Apologies, he passed it to me. But it smelt like it had gone off so I threw it away and bought some Liquorice Allsorts instead. Did you know that if you shave the edges off the yellow and pink circular ones you can make them like like nuts!

[Gremlyn]

Have a pitypound, on me.

£39,999 to go!

[DreamHazard]

Have a pitypound, on me.

£39,999 to go!

[Madasasteamfish]

Have a pitypound, on me.

£39,999 to go!

*slow clap*

[George Salt]

As for "justifying" my costs, with a bunch of strangers, that isnt going to happen. Ive been a photographer and engineering contractor for a long time and i know how much it costs to get things done. I'm certainly not posting my financial and tax calculations all over the net for the world to scrutinise.

The strangers you should be justifying your costs yo you are the entire audience on Kickstarter you're appealing for money to.

[Drew P]

Still just £39,999.00 to go!

Might just make it.