That 'big project' I've been banging on about for a few years now....

[James Harrison]

Interesting; in the UK at least we tend to just rely on some plastic with the phrase 'live cable below' or similar.  The only power cable I'm aware of in the garden is the lead to the garage, and that runs next to the fence on the other side of the lawn, a good 3 or 4 metres away or so. 

The whole path and the patio seem to be bedded in the stuff, so I'm minded to conclude it's a high-sand/low-cement mix rather than denoting there's high voltage cabling down there,

[SeVeNeVeS]

down south some scalpings have a definite pinky red colouring, could be a reult of the concrete being mixed with something like that.

[von Corax]

down south some scalpings have a definite pinky red colouring, could be a reult of the concrete being mixed with something like that.

I suppose crushed red granite could do that.

[Banfili]

This is all looking very good, James
(yes, I'm back!)

[James Harrison]

So... this happened.  Will happen.  Is happening...

I've tried so far to shy away from filling the house with period furniture because, well fundamentally I don't want to live in a museum.  Nor do I want visiting friends and family to spend their time afraid to touch anything.

But I've made an exception here because my options for the bathroom if I stay with modern fittings are
1. An identikit snotbox bathroom
2. All. The. Twee.

Neither of which appeal. 

So the plan is that- at least for the sink, will see what's what with the cistern and the bathtub/ shower- that I have something more of a signature period-appropriate piece.  This is an actual Edwardian antique and, as such, it's hurt my budget.  I think we're up to easily around the £500 at the moment just on the sink - I'm beginning to understand exactly how people can get through thousands with a bathroom refit. 

There's more to come as well because that is a marble top, the seller believes it's original to the piece and I'm damned if I'm cutting holes through it for the sink and tap(s).  So I need to visit the local stone mason and get a new top for it (the original I'll be keeping in storage in case I ever sell the thing on). 

[SeVeNeVeS]

very nice!
You will possibly have to drill holes in the carcass anyway to allow for plumbing, speaking of which have you found out if the joists run in the right direction yet? I would strongly advise to do so soon as you appear to be throwing money at this. Just saying.

[James Harrison]

Not so much throwing money at it, more trying to spread the cost out (and also sourcing the bits on an 'as and when' basis).

I've not done any more investigating with the joists yet; if, as I suspect, the plywood completely covers the floor, I'll have to take up a lot more tiles to get even one sheet of it up.  I'm trying to work out the best way of doing that without reducing the bathroom to an unusable mess.   

[SeVeNeVeS]

Take up a few tiles, zip out a small chunk of ply and see what way them there boards and joists are running. Eggs and omelettes.

All this planning and buying could be for nowt if the house construction goes against you, some little discomfort will benefit in the long run, trust me on this.......or not......

Ask yourself why the existing layout is as it is? Joists, RSJ, lazyness or cheapness and convenience. To achieve your final goal some sacrifice may have to be made.

Your only other option would be run surface, out and around the exterior of the building (wher the condensate is) to the soil....ugly and not pleasant on the eye.

[James Harrison]

I think the only place I can reasonably take some tile up- without running risk of exposing ply boarding to water damage - is in the airing cupboard.  There's still a few tiles down in the bottom of that, that can be broken out.  When that's done I'll be able to cut the ply board itself out and that should then show which way the floorboards run.  Which should in turn suggest which way the joists run. 

I'm open to having small notches/ openings cut into the joists if necessary - this is exactly what has been done in the upstairs hallway to get radiator pipes into the bedrooms - that it hasn't resulted in the hallway floor collapsing suggests that I could do the same in the bathroom without issue, depending of course where the notches are made.  There's some crossover between this and the sort of thing I get up to with my professional life so I can run the numbers on it.

[Madasasteamfish]

There's more to come as well because that is a marble top, the seller believes it's original to the piece and I'm damned if I'm cutting holes through it for the sink and tap(s).  So I need to visit the local stone mason and get a new top for it (the original I'll be keeping in storage in case I ever sell the thing on). 

Very nice to the point where I find myself turning an interesting shade of viridian.

Are you planning on keeping the marble, or opting for something different?

[James Harrison]

There's more to come as well because that is a marble top, the seller believes it's original to the piece and I'm damned if I'm cutting holes through it for the sink and tap(s).  So I need to visit the local stone mason and get a new top for it (the original I'll be keeping in storage in case I ever sell the thing on). 

Very nice to the point where I find myself turning an interesting shade of viridian.

Are you planning on keeping the marble, or opting for something different?

I'm keeping the marble. I'm just not drilling through this top. I want, basically, a like-for-like replacement.  Drilling through the bottom for the pipes isn't ideal either, but it's 'only' a bit of sheet timber and it'll be hidden so I'll accept that bit of damage.

[James Harrison]

Take up a few tiles, zip out a small chunk of ply and see what way them there boards and joists are running. Eggs and omelettes.

All this planning and buying could be for nowt if the house construction goes against you, some little discomfort will benefit in the long run, trust me on this.......or not......

Ask yourself why the existing layout is as it is? Joists, RSJ, lazyness or cheapness and convenience. To achieve your final goal some sacrifice may have to be made.

Your only other option would be run surface, out and around the exterior of the building (wher the condensate is) to the soil....ugly and not pleasant on the eye.

I need to run those calcs I mentioned. Taking up a few more tiles exposed plywood (well, we knew that was there from my previous Sunday afternoon messing) and when I started cutting through that I found a sheet of 18mm chipboard beneath. No way I'm cutting through that with the tools to hand that can fit in the bottom of the airing cupboard. Luckily I've got some pipes that come through it, so there are some small holes just large enough to get my hand through. And- behind those pipes- there's a joist I should be able to reach to measure. Running the wrong way for what I want to do...

~ A bit later~

Hmm, more investigation required.  I've measured the joist (50mm across by 150mm deep) and assuming typically 450mm centres, I can't prove at the moment that they're OK for the existing situation (calcs suggest the joists are overloaded if I fill the bathtub up....)  This is of course assuming use of C16 or C24 softwood, they might I grant you be something a bit more robust but that just feels like too great an assumption to make. 

[James Harrison]

Well, after some initial figures suggested that by rights I should have already had a 'The Money Pit bathtub scene' situation, I think I have an answer.

Let's say the weight of the floorboards, plywood and tiling over is in the region of about 30kg/m^2 (0.3kN/m^2) and as that's a permanent load we'll uprate that by 1.35 giving about 0.41kN/m^2. 

Then we'll say that the room sees an access load in the region of 100kg/m^2; that's basically one and a quarter of me, or thereabouts.  As that's a temporary load we'll uprate that by 1.5 for 1.5kN/m^2.

So 1.5kN/m^2 temporary + 0.41kN/m^2 permanent gives 1.91kN/m^2.  Joists are at 0.45m centres so a line load on each joist of 1.91 * 0.45 = 0.86kN/m. 

Span of the joist is 2.75 metres so if we say that the joist is simply supported that gives us
Moment = 0.86 * 2.75^2/8 = 0.81kNm
Shear = 0.86 * 2.75/2 = 1.18kN

Let's assume that the joist is C24 timber and from Table 8, BS5268 the basic tensile strength is 7.3N/mm^2 and the shear strength is 0.71N/mm^2.  It's for internal use so we don't need to refer to Table 16, and I think for robustness we'll assume that the loading (Table 17) is long term.  This is correct for the dead load but for the live load it's assuming that people go in there, and never come out. 

There are a number of joists in the floor and because of that we can assume some degree of load sharing; so tensile strength is 7.3 * 1.1 = 8.03N/mm^2 and shear strength = 0.71 * 1.1 = 0.78N/mm^2.

The joist we know to be 150mm deep by 50mm wide, let's say that the proposed notches are 50mm deep, so the actual area of the joist that can be utilised for loading is 100mm deep by 50mm wide. 

Section modulus therefore is (50 * 100^2)/6 = 83333mm^3, 8.03 * 83333*10^-6 = 0.67kNm capacity.  So obviously we have an isue if the notch is placed at midspan.  However as the beam is simply supported, the applied moment tails off as we approach the points of support.  So if the notches are close to the walls, it will be OK. 

Shear capacity is 0.78 * 100 * 50 *10^-3 = 3.90kN versus an applied 1.8kN, so no issues there.

Deflection might be an issue; the second moment of area is (50*100^3)/12 = 4166667mm^4 and the mean modulus of elasticity is 10,800N/mm^2. 

5 * 0.86 * 2.75^4 / 384 * 10800 * 4166667 *10^9 = 0.014m or 14mm.  Although actually, for deflection I need to be looking at my un-factored figures. 

So 0.3kN/M^2 dead + 1kN/m^2 live = 1.3kN/m^2 and multiply that by 0.45m joist centres = 0.59kN/m run on each joist. 

So now 5 * 0.59 * 2.75^4 / 384 * 10800 * 4166667 * 10^9 = 0.010m or 10mm.  For serviceability we say deflection is acceptable provided it is less than span / 270.  2750mm / 270 = 10.19mm.  We're on the knuckle for deflection but again similar to moment it's going to tail off toward the supports. 

So I think provided I give the plumbers instructions to keep their notches less than 50mm deep and make sure they're as close to the wall as they can get, the existing floor joists should be OK. 



 

[SeVeNeVeS]

Still not enough over the width of the room methinks.

Diameter of waste pipe    Maximum length between trap and stack pipe    Fall per metre run.....
50mm    4m    18 to 90mm
32mm    1.7m    18 to 22mm
40mm    3m    18 to 44mm

I will let you do the maths but after 1.7m (get away with 2 ) it should be upped from 32 to 40 especially if you plan to tee the condensate, I would use an anti vac trap for such a long run to prevent self siphanage too and avoid nuckle bends, I would use 2 x 45's.

You might get away with drilling holes rather than notching, you can go bigger and lower with less stress on the jiost gonna have to be precise though, again you have to do the calcs.

I can pretty much garuantee if you can run the whole lenth in 32 it will eventually block and self siphon the trap, not trying to poo poo the party here, just be of some help if possible

[James Harrison]

Oh, no no- advice on practicalities is welcomed. Your point about the diameter of the pipe and the fall required is quite sound and I'll have to see what the plumber says about it.
Drilling through the beams would be better but I have my doubts about how the pipe is then actually installed, unless it's more in the nature of a flexible hose?
If it is, as I've assumed so far, a rigid metal tube then I can't see how it can be manoeuvred through a series of drill holes. 
There are other options to look at of course- I could raise the floor entirely, I could cut a groove through the plywood/ chipboard/ floorboards and limit the notch depth that way, I could I suppose even take the basin drain down into the kitchen and plumb it into the kitchen sink drainage.

[SeVeNeVeS]

The pipe would be plastic waste standard.
All the holes would have to be drilled first including the brick wall, then the pipe can be passed through from outside smallest first.
A very tricky operation to get exactly right but I think it could be done if your plumber is game for a challenge.
It all depends on whether you can get a minimum run (a little more might be better) at least over the width of the room.

I wouldn't consider dropping to kitchen waste, a whole different potential of problems with that one.........

[James Harrison]

And onto the 2024 programme. 

The thing in the back of my mind now is that in early 2025 my fixed rate mortgage switches over to a tracker type.  Which means that it's going to become more expensive and - crucially - I don't know how much more a month I'm going to have to pay.  This means that if I want to do expensive things, they're going to have to be done next year or else put off to a later date.

The first thing on the list is to finish off the window renewal programme.  There are two windows still to be replaced - in the back bedroom, and the bathroom. 

Done. 











So, that's all of the windows changed now. 
I can push forward with the next big part of the 2024 programme now. 

[James Harrison]

So that bit done and out the way I've now had a chat with the plumber as to how exactly to get the bathroom remodelling sorted out.  They've suggested that I buy the fixtures and fittings myself, and they'll come and fit it.

That's one thing I was a bit unsure about, when you strip out a bathroom who actually orders the replacement bits, the client or the contractor...  so now at least I know I've got a green light to go out and start stockpiling the more run-of-the-mill bits without putting anybody's nose out of joint.

Then they've advised that they run on a 3-week lead time for booking in planned work, so it will probably be late Spring/ early Summer when we're good to go.   

[SeVeNeVeS]

I have to admit when the first windows were installed I wasn't too keen but now they are all in I must say looks fabulous.

I take it the plumbers had no issue with the waste.....great news and looking forward to seeing progress piccies in a few months.

[James Harrison]

I have to admit when the first windows were installed I wasn't too keen but now they are all in I must say looks fabulous.

I take it the plumbers had no issue with the waste.....great news and looking forward to seeing progress piccies in a few months.

Yeah, I'm really quite pleased with how the windows turned out.  Not exactly how I had in mind - the kitchen windows are to different proportions than the others, so they look a bit odd - but overall the effect is.... compelling.  If you just compare it with what I originally had (there's a photo right back on page 1 - just about exactly 4 years ago), the difference is really something. 

As for the notching of the joists, I don't think that's going to be possible. 

https://www.labc.co.uk/news/how-get-it-right-notches-holes-solid-timber-joists

Just 'cause the numbers seem to work doesn't mean it will be up to code... so I need an alternative.  One option could be to drop through the kitchen ceiling, run the pipe across the kitchen ceiling (I've got a good 8' or so headroom in there, if you say the pipe is dropping 18mm to the metre that's 18*2.75 + the 40mm pipe itself, calling it 100mm total / 4") and then out the kitchen wall and across to the main bathroom outflow.  Means I lose 4" in ceiling height- or maybe not. 

If you cast your mind back to the house tour video you'll remember there's a big boxed-out beam that spans across the kitchen.  Its a good 330mm deep or so.  As best as I can tell, that is where the wall used to be that split the kitchen into three (scullery, coal bunker and WC).  It's also supporting the bathroom's back wall.  If I can get my outflow pipe to that wall, we can drop it into the kitchen, it would cross the kitchen within the depth of that beam and then out. Then I simply have to box that pipe in with studwork and plasterboard or similar.  Means the box out becomes a bit wider but avoids notching joists, avoids lowering the ceiling, just seems to avoid so many issues. 

Of course I could also avoid them entirely just by keeping the bathroom layout exactly as it is....

 

[James Harrison]

Sitrep. The wash stand has arrived.
The marble base is physically fixed to the back; I cannot see a way of separating the two without causing damage.
It also sits quite happily, and looking very much at home, in my dining room.
Also, a dining room chair offered up to it is of a complementary height.
I think what I've done here is, I've bought myself a new desk.

[Synistor 303]

Damn - I have the perfect sideboard that would suite your place - inherited it recently and no one here wants it and I am not interested in selling it if I could give it away to someone who would get some enjoyment out of it! (There was lots of other furniture, so it wasn't as if the family were turning their noses up at any of it - just that we all ran out of space, after LOTS of measuring and gnashing of teeth...)

[James Harrison]

Damn - I have the perfect sideboard that would suite your place - inherited it recently and no one here wants it and I am not interested in selling it if I could give it away to someone who would get some enjoyment out of it! (There was lots of other furniture, so it wasn't as if the family were turning their noses up at any of it - just that we all ran out of space, after LOTS of measuring and gnashing of teeth...)

Oh no, that's a shame - I suspect the shipping costs would be crippling 

It's a very kind thought though, thank you. 

[James Harrison]

It's the weekend; time to have a look at exactly what I've taken on with this washstand. 

It breaks down into two parts - the marble top and the tiled back just lift off - and the timber lower part, being relatively light, I've been able to get upstairs without too much risk of injury to myself or damage to the antique.  As such, it's now sitting in my bathroom, in approximately the location I had in mind for it, and I'm going to leave it there for the next week or so to see how I live with it.  If I run onto it in the dark or on early mornings, we know we've got an issue and things will need a rethink. 

The marble and tile component is still in my dining room - now sitting on the table - and I've laid it on its back to see exactly how it's been assembled.  There are three screwholes through the marble and into the timber surround, one of which is empty.  So it's only held together by a pair of screws.  Unfortunately they look like they have rusted solid and seized.  It looks like somebody else had a previous go at dismantling the thing - the screw heads are stripped out - and they refuse to budge when encouraged with a screwdriver. 

So - and I say this with the deepest misgivings - I think if I want to change the marble, I'm going to have to drill those screws out.  Or, at the very least, drill the screwheads out so that the marble can come off the bottom.  So that looks like this afternoon's task set, then. 

[The Bullet]

rusted solid and seized.

Try a few drops of Ballistol, wait overnight and try again. Of not successful, repeat.