UK Sutlers Store/19th Century Tailoring (Buyer Beware)

[Argus Fairbrass]

So I'm looking for a brown frockcoat and have decided to have one made. There seems to be only one obvious place to go to in the UK, as I see they are up and running again. But I'm wondering if anyone else has brought stuff from there and if so how do you rate the quality? (I think some of the clothes in the photos don't look quite right tbh, but it's difficult to pin down exactly why and I'm guessing they may look better in real life)

http://www.sutlers.co.uk/acatalog/vict.html

Mine will be a custom order (single breasted, dark brown wool, peak lapels, dark navy grossgrain lining, dark navy satin on revers ideally) something along these lines with a few adjustments.

Spoiler: ShowHide

It won't be cheap, but not much more expensive than ordering ill fitting off the peg stuff from the States due to shipping and custom charges. There just genuinly don't seem to be many alternatives here in the UK sadly. I do own 2 vintage black double breasted ones, but just can't find the style I want in other colours. (I am aware of Wahmaker and Frontier Classics)

Before you ask there is no way in hell I can make this myself I'm afraid. I'm just not a tailor, and I really get the impression that the art of true frockcoat making has been pretty much lost in general even by those that are.

But if anyone else makes them or knows alternative people who you think might do a better job, feel free to post links by all means or PM me (this is a genuine enquiry). This is going to cost upwards of £200-250 at least by my reckoning, and that's still comparitively inexpensive.


(edited to update thread title - W)

[Oneiros]

Just before Sutlers Stores closed last year, I had a shirt, waistcoat and trousers made by them, and I'm extremely pleased with what I've got.

They now operate under the name "19th Century Tailoring". They don't actually have a shop any more, but a small workspace in Bournemouth. (They were in Poole just up from the Ryvita factory.)

I was actually going to be visiting them this morning. I'm after a high collar sack coat. But we've had to rescheduel the meeting.

As to prices, they've slashed what they were. The Sack coat is going to be £120. It was over £300 before.

[Oneiros]

I ordered my coat last Friday.

Popped in to the shop in Boscombe. Spoke to Nancy. Very nice lady.

Left £120 lighter...

But I get a nice fitted sack coat in 7 weeks time. Yey!

Apparently my arms are an inch longer than the average person. Goes well with their popeye-ness.

[Major Willoughby Chase]

Well, as I'm now placing an order with her that I've been humming and hawwing about for a good few years (instead of getting the New Rocks) I've just worked out I can get a 1st class return to Bournemouth for about £22... I suspect I shall be doing that and letting her measure me, rather than measuring myself badly at home.  Only a few £'s more to the order

[Argus Fairbrass]

Thanks for all the replies Gents. I think I am going to go with 19th century tailoring 

Especially if they do actual custom measuring. It's really not a lot of money for bespoke clothing all things considered. In fact now would probably be a very good time before costs soar again. Although I must confess given the season we've just entered, I'm not in too much of a hurry for a long woollen jacket 

[Doveton Sturdee]

Good evening,
Following a discussion about clothing for chaps at today's West Midlands gathering at the Old Joint Stock I promised to post up some links. Here they are, I hope they of use to you:

http://www.sutlers.co.uk/index.html

http://www.civilwarsutler.co.uk/

http://www.warhorseandreproductionsofhistory.com/

All of the above are UK based traders and are, as far as I know, trustworthy and reliable.

Best regards.

[Herr Döktor]

Sutlers never had a great reputation, and the latest incarnation carries that on, alas.

Can't speak of the others, but I've at least had a look at Warhorse!

[TimeTinker]

19th Century Tailoring which is half of the original Sutlers.  (It's a long saga) is having some problems delivering on orders at the moment so whilst I would not discourage anyone from ordering from them I would advise you to ensure you order at least twelve weeks earlier than you might think you need to if you want something for a specific date or event. I do buy from them but only items from their stock where I get it the instant I hand over my money.

Warhorse are great.  I have bought from them for years.  Lee is a cantankerous b#gger and can be difficult at times but the quality is great and his prices are unbeatable.  He has told me he is running down all of his stocks of ACW and similar kit and they intend concentrating almost entirely on WW2 though.

I bought quite a lot of kit from Civil War Sutler earlier this year. (I was making a documentary about the American Civil War) They are friendly enough and prices are very keen.  The kit is made in Pakistan and the quality is very good on leatherwork etc and clothing is fair.  If you are looking for larger sizes you may be disappointed because the manufacturer of their clothing is not very good at scaling up patterns (they scale up the whole thing instead of proportionally) so you are likely to get ill fitting shoulders etc on anything over about a size 40 chest.

One of the leading sutlers for many years have been West Point of Birmingham.  http://www.westpointsutlers.org

Phil and Jayne are easy to deal with, friendly and knowledgeable.  Unfortunately the stopped dealling in clothing when they closed their shop (they are now only mail order and shows)  This side is now covered entirely by Kerry (who used to make costumes for West Point) who trades as Ark
http://www.arkhistoricclothing.co.uk/

Many steampunks are shopping with Pat at the Victorian Costume Company or buying from FLB Westernwear.   (Both will be at The Asylum)

[Cpt. Tobias Warde]

After the issues I had with Sutlers, which saw the loss of £120 to my finances in return for nothing*, I personally will not trade with Sutlers again, even if they have relaunched themselves. Having checked their website, all I can see are the old photographs & listings of stock from prior to the company going under this time last year. I'd give them a wide berth personally.

*I placed an order beginning of June 2010 & 2 months later they went under with, as far as I know, a large backlog of orders. Despite my best efforts I was not able to reclaim my money via them or my bank. I don't like holding grudges but I have a major one with Sutlers.co.uk now.

[Argus Fairbrass]

Sadly they are still the only UK based site I can find that appear to do authentic re pro frockcoats at even slightly sane prices. I'm aware of the big financial split and subsequent bankruptcy etc. As far as I know it is just one lady making the stuff now so there probably is a wait.

I've heard some people say they were happy with the service currently provided, others not so much. Obviously Tobias was caught In the business meltdown as it were. (there may well be a legal route you can go down there) Unfortunately £120 is the kind of amount that gets written off a bit too easily by some.

I think if I do decide to use them I'm going to take the advice I received a while ago and actually go there in person to get measured.

[inigo jameson-gatling]

Have any of you made an order with Sutlers/19th Century Tailoring recently, as I made one at the end of July 2011 and have heard nothing since. I appreciate that the site indicates 7 -12 weeks to fulfill an order but I am getting worried, but i am no waiting over six months. There has as yet been no answer to my calls or emails. Has this company disappeared again?

[Major Willoughby Chase]

They are horrific, avoid, avoid, avoid.

I was mucked about left right and centre and would NEVER use them again.  The comms are great, right up until you get the money, then they go very quiet.

[Argus Fairbrass]

Bugger! well I've finally just got the money and was all ready to go.

This really does not sound good, they have folded once before and left a lot of people hanging as it were. Hopefully these are simply delays but they do sound like extreme ones nonetheless.

As has been said there are are other folks on here and elsewhere who can make a lot of the stuff that we want. Personally as I do actually want to get measured, I think I'm just going to buy some historical patterns, take them to a local tailor and see what they can do.

[Major Willoughby Chase]

From what I hear and have seen from some surprisingly similar photographs you can cut out the middle man (and the markup) and go directly to certain Indian companies.

I asked to buy an extra swatch of the material they were 'custom making' my KGL tunic from, so I could keep some by for repairs and accessories.  I was repeatedly ignored.  So I'm guessing, despite what they tell you, they are not custom making your item.

Oh yes and they wanted to charge £35 for delivery.  I can post mail armour I make for less than that.

This email exchange does not take into account the many, many, many, attempts to contact them by phone, or uses of their online webform.

Wanting to place an order.
30 April 2011 19:24
To: sales@19th-century-tailoring.co.uk
Hi there,

I wish to place an order with you for a King's German Legion tunic, however ever time I have rung over that past couple of weeks it has gone straight to answering service and I have had no reply from the contact form message system.  I'm aware we're in a double bank holiday period, so the likelyhood is that you're away, I'm just getting a little twitchy about time as I need to ensure I have this jacket for The Asylum later this year as it is the basis for my new Steampunk uniform.  The sooner it arrives, the sooner I can finalise the other parts.  I have the money put by ready, please let me know if you are still taking orders.  

Kind regards,

Sales 19th Century <sales@19th-century-tailoring.co.uk>
    1 May 2011 10:39

Hi



I apologise that I have not been in touch.  Please feel free to order the tunic online, as I am definitely taking orders still.



Kind Regards



Nancy Beardall

19th Century Tailoring

Shop Five

4-6 Roumelia Lane

Bournemouth

BH5 1EU

1 May 2011 13:41
To: Sales 19th Century <sales@19th-century-tailoring.co.uk>
Hi Nancy,

Thank you for getting in touch.  I am just in the process of placing the order, however I note that the postage quoted when placing the order is vastly different to the postage on the information page.

Post and packing in the UK is approximately 10% of the cost of the order up to a maximum charge of £12.50

Postage charge on the checkout page is quoted at £35, almost three times the quoted maximum.  Can you confirm which is correct, as if the info page is incorrect, I should prefer to arrange to collect the order as I can book advance train tickets to Bournemouth for around £13.20 if you can give me a completion/collection date to book for.

Kind regards,

    1 May 2011 15:59
To: Sales 19th Century <sales@19th-century-tailoring.co.uk>
Ah, just realised I should probably tell you what I'm trying to order as that may help if there is a problem with the checkout.

CT2039K King's German Legion Tunic   
Spaced Sizes - Your Neck Size: 15, Your height: Regular - 5ft 8ins-5ft 10ins, Chest Size: 36", Your Waist Size: 30", Your Sleeve Length: 23

The main reason I queried it charging £35 for 1st class (other than the info page saying £12.50 max) is that last week I posted a package consisting of 10kg of chainmail of a similar value to this jacket and Special Delivery for that was £22.70

Either way, I have money burning a hole in my pocket and look forward to your reply, I've wanted this jacket for years and this is the first time I've had enough disposable income to justify it

Kind regards,

Sales 19th Century <sales@19th-century-tailoring.co.uk>    2 May 2011 09:13
Hi



I am sorry I need to get the t&cs updated.  The price for shipping is £35 as I have to cover the costs of packaging and shipping.



Kind Regards



Nancy Beardall

To: Sales 19th Century
Subject: Re: Wanting to place an order.


To: Sales 19th Century <sales@19th-century-tailoring.co.uk>
Hi there,

Would it possible to arrange to collect the item once completed please?  I can get a return to Bournemouth from where I live for £13.20 essentially the P&P price is the difference between me placing an order and not.

Kind regards,

Sales 19th Century <sales@19th-century-tailoring.co.uk>    2 May 2011 09:37

Hi



Yes that would be fine, I have attached a proforma invoice which will mean you do not have to pay p&p, but you will have to pay via PayPal, or by cheque.



You state your sleeve length as 23", this is very short – most men of your height have a sleeve length of 25".  Can you check please?

Kind Regards



Nancy Beardall

    2 May 2011 09:55
To: Sales 19th Century <sales@19th-century-tailoring.co.uk>
Hi Nancy,

Thank you, that is wonderful  I've just noticed that the sizes that I copy and pasted are the default ones, I think I must have opened the wrong page.  I'm after.

CT2039K King's German Legion Tunic     
Spaced Sizes - Your Neck Size: 17, Your height: Long - 5ft 10ins-6ft 3ins, Chest Size: 44", Your Waist Size: 38", Your Sleeve Length: 25

To clarify any sizes, that's 16.5 collar and 6 foot tall...  I suspect I have the sleeve measure from the correct point, I've measured it from where the sleeve seam on a suit jacket would be.  I'm afraid there wasn't an attachment, however once one is sent and I have your PayPal address, I will ensure that it is paid through there within the hour.

And then I will pretend I'm not spending my disposable income for the next few months *grin*

Kind regards,

Sales 19th Century <sales@19th-century-tailoring.co.uk>
    2 May 2011 10:03

Hi



Oops sorry I forgot to attach it! I have amended sizes, could you email me your surname and address please.



Thanks



Kind Regards



Nancy Beardall

Address then sent

Sales 19th Century <sales@19th-century-tailoring.co.uk>
    2 May 2011 10:58
Thanks, and thanks for the payment.



Kind Regards



Nancy Beardall

17 June 2011 12:54
To: Sales 19th Century <sales@19th-century-tailoring.co.uk>
Hi there,

Just thought I'd drop a line to see if everything is going okay with the order.  Hopefully it'll be ready to collect in time for the Fashion Punk weekend at The Greatest Steampunk Exhibition at Kew Bridge Steam Museum, as it would be nice to use this in the photographs.  Though that date may be cutting it fine.  

Also would it be possible to aquire some of the waste offcuts of the material (for any future repairs) and perhaps a piece around 18" x 8" for a busby type hat I'm planning on making for it.

Kind regards,

2 July 2011 12:12
To: Sales 19th Century <sales@19th-century-tailoring.co.uk>
Hi there,

It's been a fortnight since I contacted you last and to be honest I had hoped you would have replied in some way, even to say that you weren't sure when the jacket would be ready.  Please could you respond to this email as £165 is a lot for me to pay out and not recieve some form of communication.

Regards,

Sales 19th Century <sales@19th-century-tailoring.co.uk>
    5 July 2011 09:37

Dear W



Apologies for my tardiness in replying I have been extremely busy.

The tunic is due for completion towards the end of next week.  I do not know the date of your event so I do not know if this is in time or not.



Kind Regards



Nancy Beardall

5 July 2011 11:48
To: Sales 19th Century <sales@19th-century-tailoring.co.uk>
Hi Nancy,

Thanks for your reply, I have to admit I was getting a little worried, I'm happy all is going well as I have been asked to write a review of the item for the Brass Goggles forum (probably the world leading Steampunk forum) obviously I want this to be as good as possible, although it sounds like you really don't need the extra business, lol.  

I just wanted to check if you'd seen my request in the email before last, if the offcuts aren't possible, could you tell me is it would be possible to just buy half a metre of the green fabric, that way I have plenty for the busby, possibly a sidecap and any repairs that my pipe smoking may bring about.

Also would it be possible to aquire some of the waste offcuts of the material (for any future repairs) and perhaps a piece around 18" x 8" for a busby type hat I'm planning on making for it.

Thank you once again, I really do appreciate the service and am so very glad that you started trading after sutlers died off.

Kind regards,

2 August 2011 12:03
To: Sales 19th Century <sales@19th-century-tailoring.co.uk>
Hi there,

I assume, despite receiving no notification to confirm, that this tunic is now ready for collection, I shall be in Bournemouth on Monday the 8th and wish to collect it that day.  Could you please confirm this is acceptable, I have once again tried to phone to contact but the phone is constantly going direct to answering service no matter what time of day I have tried.

Please reply as a matter of some urgency.

Regards,

Sales 19th Century <sales@19th-century-tailoring.co.uk>
    3 August 2011 08:45

Hi



Collection on Monday will be fine, what time will you be here?



Kind Regards



Nancy Beardall

5 August 2011 11:38
To: Sales 19th Century <sales@19th-century-tailoring.co.uk>
Hi there,

Sorry, they've just changed the day of my work, I'll be there Tuesday now, I can collect any time after midday.

Kind regards,

Sales 19th Century <sales@19th-century-tailoring.co.uk>    5 August 2011 12:00
Hi

Tuesday is fine, I will be there up until 4.30pm



Kind Regards



Nancy Beardall

This meeting was then cancelled as apparently she had fallen down the stairs, although by this point I had stopped trusting anything she said.  Prior to this I had actually been preparing the legal steps necessary to recover my money, had been researching her husband's websites (payment is in his name, website is also) to get a home address, rather than the business address.  

I would never, ever, deal with 19th Century Tailoring ever again.

I would go further and as an individual member of this forum, not as a moderator, encourage you all to likewise save yourself the uncertainty and never use them.

[Herr Döktor]

Yes, I have it on very, very, very, good authority that part of the long lead-time required is that they get their clobber made in India, by these folks, amongst others:

http://www.replicaters.com/

Who are trusted suppliers to a number of reenactor groups and TV production companies.

[Major Willoughby Chase]

Yes, I have it on very, very, very, good authority that part of the long lead-time required is that they get their clobber made in India, by these folks, amongst others:

http://www.replicaters.com/

Who are trusted suppliers to a number of reenactor groups and TV production companies.

That is indeed the company I was alluding to.  There are many members of this forum who already use them (The Royal Dirigible Corps for one).  Feel free to compare prices on identical items from various Indian companies and work out how much is made by ordering it on your behalf.

[Herr Döktor]

I also feel duty bound to mention these fellows:

http://www.whatpriceglory.com/

Used them once or twice, can't fault the service or quality.

[inigo jameson-gatling]

My stuff arrived eventually. Sleeves of the jacket are 5cms short which is not good at all. I will seek out some leather and ad some bands at the cuffs only because Sulters will not answer my communications.

[Major Willoughby Chase]

Inigo, I assume I have your permission to post your horror story elsewhere I find the need?  At the moment I'm pondering a website, lol.

[Pocko]

Thanks to all of you for highlighting the somewhat, um, patchy customer services provided by 19th Century Tailoring.

I've been in two minds as to order something from them for years (back in the days of Sutlers). The original business seemed to melt down just as I decided to scrape the money together for an order. I did not take this as a good sign.

The accounts here have confirmed my suspicions that any instability from the previous incarnations might be carried forward into new ventures.

I shall look to obtain some Victorian trousers elsewhere!

[inigo jameson-gatling]

Inigo, I assume I have your permission to post your horror story elsewhere I find the need?  At the moment I'm pondering a website, lol.

Of course.

[inigo jameson-gatling]

I shall look to obtain some Victorian trousers elsewhere!

http://www.gentlemansemporium.com is a good place to start. I have several pairs of trousers from this company and a few shirts as well. The one thing I would say is that the first trousers I bought were a little on the large side (but not unduly), even though I followed their recommendation about getting your size and going to the next one up as the trousers sit higher on your body. I have since gone for my normal waist and everything is well.

[sportell]

Has anyone successfully gotten their money back from 19th Century Tailoring?  I had not read this thread before and just dropped about 250 pounds on a uniform for my husband.  Needless to say I'm having the same issues as others.  It's been about 2 months and there has been no reply emails and the phone number sends me to a voicemail from which I get no return calls.  This is quite a bit of money I've lost and cannot afford to get nothing in return.  I'm fuming at the moment over the absolute disrespect through lack of contact.  I am in Germany at the moment, but will go out of my way to get my money back if someone can tell me how they managed it.  In America we have a Better Business Bureau we can threaten businesses with.  That usually works.  Does England have something like this I can call?  Thank you.

[Argus Fairbrass]

Hi!

I would say (if it makes you feel any better) that two months is not an unusually long wait with these folks, so you may yet get your goods. Unfortunately it sounds like these guys are pretty experienced when it comes to ignoring communications in general. Having declared bankruptcy at least once already I get the impression denial is something of a forte with them.

If it actually is the case (and it sounds like it is) that they are having stuff made in India, then I guess a delay is to be expected. As for a better business bureau, I believe we do have something along those lines here, but quite how effective it is I wouldn't like to say. Hopefully someone with better info can answer that for you. Frankly I'm expecting to see this company on Watchdog soon if things continue in this fashion.

[Lachlan_MacAuslander]

I shall look to obtain some Victorian trousers elsewhere!

http://www.gentlemansemporium.com is a good place to start. I have several pairs of trousers from this company and a few shirts as well. The one thing I would say is that the first trousers I bought were a little on the large side (but not unduly), even though I followed their recommendation about getting your size and going to the next one up as the trousers sit higher on your body. I have since gone for my normal waist and everything is well.

Seconded - and I had the same experience with their measuring instructions. The pair I ordered are a lovely brown stripey fabric, but much too large, even on my currently amply upholstered frame. I'll be ordering another pair in my normal size, and saving this one for future deconstruction and pattern making, should I wish to attempt to sew a pair myself.